The Land And The Bible
The Land And The Bible
Jesus' Hidden Message - Churches of Revelation Episode 2
Jesus' Hidden Message to Churches of Revelation Episode 2
In this podcast episode of the Land and the Bible podcast, hosts delve into the portrayal of Jesus Christ in the book of Revelation, particularly in chapter 1. Biblical EXPERT Jamison Creel Reveals Jesus Hidden Message in Revelation as they explore how Jesus is depicted as supreme over oppressive earthly powers, such as those represented by the Roman Empire. The discussion emphasizes Jesus' eternal nature, his role in fulfilling prophecies, and the promise of his return. The hosts also touch on the symbolism used in Revelation, such as the seven stars and lampstands, to illustrate Jesus' active presence and authority within the churches. Additionally, insights are offered on the challenges and injustices faced by early Christians and the ultimate justice of Jesus as the righteous judge.
00:00 Introduction: Jesus vs. The Roman Empire
00:41 Welcome to the Podcast
00:56 Historical Context of Revelation
01:20 Portrayal of Jesus in Revelation
03:38 Jesus' Eternal Nature and Return
07:37 Symbolism in Revelation
12:28 Justice and Judgment in Revelation
18:17 Jesus Among the Churches
22:10 Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes
25:34 Subscribe and Support
In the face of this overwhelming empire, that seems to be sucking in all authority on earth and demanding that everyone bow to them Jesus is in control and it's good to be on his team. John is clearly laying out that Jesus is the sum of these prophecies. since Domitian had already deified himself, I guess his son was a god too. so they made this coin, on the back of it, he has these seven stars. There's no doubt that it's a symbol of power and that the Romans knew and that the Romans used. he's saying is that the power that these Romans claim that they think they're exercising over you. I got that,
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:Hey everyone, welcome to the Land and the Bible podcast. Today we are in episode two, of the Churches of Revelation. And today I'm here with Jamison Creel. How you doing, Jamison?
Jamison:Man, I'm doing great.
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:Awesome. So last week, we kind of gave a little bit of an intro to the historical context, a little bit on Revelation, but more around the context of who John was writing to, why he was writing, a little bit about where he was writing from and what led up to
Jamison:the historical background, when he was writing what was going on, that's pretty much what we
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:And so today, before we jump into the churches, one of the things we were gonna do is we were gonna kind of unpack a little bit more of the portrayal of Jesus in this.
Jamison:yeah, but because I, it's kind of funny, like, you look at the opening sentence in Revelation chapter 1, it says the revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to him to show his slaves what must quickly take place, but it's the revelation of Jesus Christ, you know, so, I mean, at the end of the day, it's A lot of it is about who Jesus is. and even goes on to say, to his slave, John, who testified to God's word and testimony about Jesus Christ and all he saw. So at the end of the day, we get so wrapped up in, you know, I want to go down this. road again. We did it the first episode where we get so wrapped up In You know, we read all this stuff in revelation and actually the main point is who's Jesus, you know? So in the face of this overwhelming empire, that seems to be sucking in all authority on earth and demanding that everyone bow to them in the face of that. Oppression, torment, who's Jesus. That's what the book is really answering. It is. You know, if the Romans are threatening to take away your business and socially ostracize you and then maybe torture and kill you, do you still want to bow to Jesus or do you want to bow to the Romans? Like that's what it's, you know, and it's really a revelation of Jesus Christ is and that he's going to be victorious. He's going to win. And those who stand with him will be on the winning team. In the end, you know, I think it's at the end of the day, if you wanted to summarize the book, you know, is to say that Jesus is in control and it's good to be on his team. And so I just want to talk really quickly about how Jesus is portrayed, particularly in John chapter one. it says this, starting in verse four, I'll skip around a little bit. it says, grace be upon you, the one who is, who was, and who is coming. So even there you have, John again, always, with eternal, the deity of Christ and wanting to emphasize to these churches that are under, they're tormented that Jesus is. Okay, so he's the I am deity. He was because, you know, he was here on earth for those 33 years of his incarnation, you know, on earth, in Judea and Galilee. But also he is coming, you know, so we want to emphasize the return as well, that the King is going to come back, you know, so you get that like, that's one of the very first sentences in the whole book, right. from the seven spirits for his throne and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, okay, there's another, you know, thing that, you know, where he's just emphasizing who Jesus is that, and this is kind of a big, a big deal to me in a way. It just in regard to how my thinking has changed over the course of years. when I was a little kid and you see this in general art, like maybe when you were a kid, back when we were kids, cartoons were violent, you had, Tom and Jerry trying to kill each other. You had the road runner and the coyote trying to use, they were just, you know, they're pretty violent. Popeye's always fight and play, whatever. I don't know. Like now kids, you know, they can't handle violence, but, they can handle other stuff that seems worse. But anyway. Oh,
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:games. It's just been
Jamison:yeah, that's true. Actually, you know, games. are still hyper violent. Yeah.
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:Yeah. For You Yeah. Roadrunner was doing that first. Come on.
Jamison:everyone was dropping anvils on. people's heads from cliffs and stuff like that. but back in those days, it didn't kill you just like make you go like, you know, and like the little stars would go around your head and stuff like that. But, so you may have seen, uh, somebody die in a cartoon, you know, and they're, they kind of like, Oh, tweet, They're they, they sprout the angel wings and they float up, you know, to heaven and they're, They're on a cloud with a, with a harp or something. And you know, that's kind of how heaven was portrayed. Was you sit around on a, you know, you're sort of disembodied. You're sort of in spirit form and you sit around on clouds, you know, playing harps, or if you went to like a really strict church, heaven was portrayed as like, 100, 000 year long church service, And the second one sounded like torture. When I was a kid, I was like, Hey, I don't know about heaven. this sounds rough. I don't want to sit on a cloud playing a harp for the rest of eternity. I also don't want to go to church for like a thousand years. That sounds terrible. What I have come to believe, later in life is my perspective has matured is that, that first off, we do not spend eternity in a place called heaven. We spend eternity on a new earth. Like we're meant to be embodied, to be physical. And the fact that Jesus's body was resurrected, he wasn't just, you know, now what happens when you die and you go to be with God until the resurrection, like that, that is up for great debate in, in Christian, you know, theology. the Bible to me clearly says to be absent from the bodies, be present with the Lord. So I do believe that you go to someplace to wait. It's maybe more pleasant than earth is, you know? but. In the end, I, you know, I believe fully because the Bible says it, that we're, we're, you know, raised where, you know, the Jesus was the first born from the dead, that our bodies are completely reconstituted and we will live as physical embodied beings again. And that Jesus is the first one of those. Okay. I think that's just clearly stated. And that's John again, making a statement about who Jesus is, if you follow him, you're one of his people, then you're going to get to do this, which I think that's good. I'm down. Let's It goes on to say, to who loves us in a set is free from our sins by his blood. So, you know, again, John is repaying Jesus is, um, I want to skip down to some of the things. Well, no, let's just get down to verse seven. and it says this, cause I think you have an interesting interweaving of Old Testament and what you see is the book of Revelation constantly refers to Old Testament prophets, whether it's Daniel or Ezekiel or Zechariah, like it just, I mean, first off, it's clear that John was completely steeped in his Old Testament that he knew it inside and out, and that he had had decades to think about who Jesus was in light of this stuff. And for him, this just flowed, you know, that, and so he says, look, he is coming in the clouds. Okay, it's clearly referenced to Daniel, Daniel chapter seven says, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a son of man. Okay. So, so clearly that's a reference to, uh, to that scripture, but then it also says in every, I will see him, including those who pierced him and all the families of earth will mourn over him, which is clearly referenced to Zechariah. Okay. So Zechariah, 12, 10. Says, let me find a translation I should look at says, then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer over that on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem. And they will look at me whom they pierced and they will mourn for him as one who mourns an only child who weeps for a firstborn. Okay. So you clearly have this, you know, not just a messianic, but, you know, I want to say a reference that. It's, it's hard to say that the Messiah is not God, you know, do you have a deistic almost prophecy of the one to come and clearly it's being referred to the Jesus as this person. Okay. So John is clearly laying out that Jesus is the sum of these prophecies. You know, and that's just absolutely clearly true. Then you get the famous quote, you know, that people often, you know, when people think about John and his articulation, who Jesus is, you know, I'm the alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, is coming. So, you know, the beginning and the end that everything starts with and ends with Jesus, you know, super important. I wanted to mention what it says a little bit down lower in the chapter where you get some of the symbolism and just talk through what that's telling us about who Jesus is. So John, if you go to verse seven, it says, I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me. And when I turned, I saw seven gold lampstands and among the lampstand was one like the son of man. Again, a reference to Daniel dressed in a long robe with a gold sash wrapped around his chest. his head and hair were white like wool, white as snow and his eyes like a fiery flame. the lampstands symbolize the churches. There's no question because later on in the letters, he talks about, if you keep this up, I will take away your lampstand. Okay. So clearly the seven lampstands are the seven churches. And he says, I saw seven gold lampstands, the churches and among the lampstands was one, like the son of man. So what that is saying. Clearly in the symbolism is that Jesus moves among the churches. Okay. He's not distant. He's not, you know, in the letters to churches, he's going to say over and over again, I see, I see, I know, I know, I see your suffering. I know your works. I see your persecution. I know you're. he's constantly telling them I see, and I know, and so what John is, I think going to communicate to us is that Jesus is not removed. And again, he's talking to churches that are under heavy persecution. He doesn't want them to think for even one minute that Jesus came to earth, did his thing, got crucified, and now he's back up in heaven, you know, partying, relaxing, taking the weekend off, while the churches down here are just getting punched in the face by the emperor, and, and, you know, under this heavy, heavy persecution. And John is saying no. He moves among the lampstands. Okay. He's walking among, he's looking at, tending to, he's active in his church. He's caring for you. You don't always see it. You don't always know it, but he's there. and he's taking care of things. and I think this is maybe, you know, again, talking about churches under persecution, you know, that maybe it's worthwhile to sort of just like pause. And, when it talks about the one who was, is, and is coming. when we talk about Jesus, particularly Protestant churches, these days, we really, really just accentuate and expound upon and highlight the kindness and the grace and, all that kind of stuff of Christ and as we should, he is loving, he's defined by love. He's willing to die for us. He is full of grace. He's willing to forgive you, at any moment of anything you've done, if you will, but repent and accept his Lordship. these things are all absolutely completely true. But what we don't sometimes think about is the fact that when Jesus was here on earth, he only fulfilled half the prophecies about himself. You know, you go to Isaiah 61, which is what he's quoting in Nazareth. You know, when he says, I'm here to declare the day of the Lord's favor, and then he closes It and sits down. The reason they got mad at him, it was because he didn't read the next sentence or even the next clause, you know, and the Lord's wrath. and vengeance and, you know, and he's going to kill the unbelievers and punish people. And, what we don't think about is that, well, that's still there. That's still, you know, like he's given us these last 2000 years to share his grace and forgiveness with the world. But there is a time that comes when now it's time for justice. And I think we've made a, almost a bad word out of justice. You know, you've got. You know, Gandhi's sort of famous snarky quote, I, you know, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth makes all the world blind or whatever. Well, you know, that's a dumb thing to say, just to be honest with you, because it's not accurate. and if you go back and you understand Moses's formulation there, what Moses was doing is he was stopping escalating violence, where you knock out my eye and I kill your son, you know,
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:It was actually an innovation
Jamison:was a crazy innovation. It was, it was a huge step in a world where again, like retribution was far worse than what you had done to say, no, we're going to do justice. Now, was Jesus going even farther to say, actually, let's do grace? Yeah. Absolutely. but the same Bible that talks about the grace of Christ and his forgiveness also says that God's throne rests on justice and righteousness. And so those aren't bad words, you know? And I think we have to know that. I mean, doesn't your like heart cry out for someone to come back and fix it? and I think that that at the end of the day, if you just want to summarize all of this, I think that's kind of what he's saying. Is it like, man, it's a mess right now. you're good people. You love the Lord. you're being treated horribly by this culture. You're being abused, isolated, made fun of, ridiculed, kicked out of businesses. You know, in extreme cases, tortured, killed, all this stuff is happening to you. And, you know, even the Old Testament prophets would say things like that. Lord, why do the, why do the violent always win? Why does justice never win? Why is it always, you know, why do the bad guys always get away with it? And the good guys suffer, like, why, why, you know, why the heathen, you know, that kind of thing is, it just pours out of the heart of man. Why is it like this? and all throughout history, people have found men or women, that they thought might fix it. And they're like, well, we're going to get behind this guy. whether that's on the right or the left, whether that's a Stalin, or Reagan, it doesn't matter. You pick a human and you think they're going to fix it.
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:and you're not, you're not drawing a comparison, but to those two.
Jamison:well, I'm just trying to say like, whatever side you're on, if you're way left or way, right, you know, if you think that there's a human is going to come along and you're going to follow them. No, I'm not saying they're the same.
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:I know, I'm
Jamison:and, but I'm saying like, you think this guy's going to fix it? Like, no, they're not, you know, they're not because the world. I mean, obviously I think there are some human. You know, regimes that are far worse than others. You know, I you know, as much as I think the American system is flawed, it's a lot better than Nazi Germany, you know, or Stalinist Russia, you know, clearly or Mao's China, you know, so, you know, I, I don't, I'm not saying there's no difference, it's clear there are differences, but the idea that you're going to have a human who's going to fix it is just not true. I think we all know that. And so I think we do yearn for someone to come and fix it. and a part of us does yearn for, I mean, I just being honest, like I, I don't want to go around being the agent of justice and, you know, like smiting the bad guys, you know, I don't want that job. It's not mine, but there is a part of us. It kind of wants that. Like, you know, like, come on, God, are they never going to pay for this? Are they never going to pay for what they've done? Now you should be careful with that and ask yourself, what do I owe for? What have I done that I should pay for? You know, when you, if you're really demanding justice for people, check yourself first, but we do want it. You know, we, we want people who suffered innocently to be rewarded and paid back. And we want people who were the tormentors to be paid back. We simply do. And I don't think that's actually wrong. We long for someone to come back and fix it. and what he's saying is like, Jesus is that. You know, he is going to come back. And he's going to set things straight. And if you, I mean, read all, you know, again, we always emphasize, you know, happy, good Jesus, but, but, you know, there are some parables that are rough, you know, if the master comes back and you're beating his servants, what's going to happen to you if the master comes back and you're just lazing around, not doing anything, what's going to happen to you, you know, and he certainly implies that it may not go, go so good. So I think he is sort of emphasizing on that when he says things like he has fiery eyes of flame and things like that. his voice is like cascading waters, like he's going to come back, like, and it's going to be in power. It's not going to be this guy getting crucified and beaten up and dying. It's not going to be the humble guy coming in on a donkey. It's going to be, A war horse is going to be in power, he's clearly, clearly saying that, and that guy is moving among those lampstands and he's watching. And if you're suffering innocently at the hands of this empire, just know that this God is going to have eternity to pay you back for what you've suffered towards you and to pay them back for what they did to you, that there is justice. I think that's, you know, clearly what's being said here. He's seeing, he's watching. You know, he's actively involved, but also the time of judgment will come, which is what the whole book's about really. Right. Is it at the end there is justice. all right. One more symbolism that I just kind of wanted to mention, as it says, so he's moving around, there's lots of sevens by the way. but it says that he had seven stars in his right hand. there was a coin printed, by Domitian. It's called the, Aureus of Domitian. It was minted in 80, 82 through 83. What happened was Domitian had a son who died in childhood, he was about three years old when he died. since Domitian had already deified himself, I guess his son was a god too. so they made this coin, on the back of it, you had this little fat naked baby kind of doing this number. And he's sitting on the globe, so he's up in the heavens, ruling over the world or whatever. And he has these seven stars. That are kind of coming out of his hands or like around his hands like this. And, I think those stars are clearly, we can get in the details of exactly why they might represent, you know, the power of, of the Roman empire, but, or even more than that, it might represent the, you know, the realm of the dead and the undead and where the gods live, you know, but it's certainly is, is a symbol of Roman power and maybe even the power of the gods. Okay. There's no doubt that it's a symbol of power and that the Romans knew and that the Romans used. And so when he says, I have that in my right hand, what he's saying is that the power that these Romans claim that they think that they have, that they think they're exercising over you. Yeah. I've like got that right here. I got that, you know, So that's a clear, strong image that he's using that they would have known they would have seen on their coins. They used every day, And then he also goes on to say, This is the last thing. he says the secret of the seven stars you saw in my right hand of the seven gold lamp stands is this, The seven stars are the angel of the seven churches and the seven lamp stands are the seven churches. So you just know those symbols can mean more than one thing. Okay. So I mean, clearly here he says the stars are the seven churches, but it's also a symbol of Roman power. so the seven stars are the angels of the churches. Okay. Angel just means messenger. You're talking about the pastor or the leader of the churches. And the seven lampstands are the churches. If you go back to verse 11, near the top, it says, write on a scroll, what you see, and send it to the seven churches in Ephesus. Smart. And we will get the, the list later. Um, and, and the, the point of all that to say is. That we clearly then know that Jesus is instructing John to write to the leaders of those churches. I just wanted to, you know, clarify who the angel was, because, you know, it's like, what? There's an angel of the churches? Like, well, yeah, there's an, there, the angel, the word angel just means messenger. You know, we, we've, we've expanded it, you know, to, to have, you know, to reference, only, spiritual beings, but it means messenger. So the messenger of the churches, again, you can use symbolic language. And so I don't think any theologian argues the fact that he's talking about the pastors of the church and the leaders. So write to the leaders, tell them this, and then, obviously deliver that message to these churches. And so to now to set up the rest of what we're going to talk about through the next, seven episodes. Jesus is going to go one by one through these seven churches. And you basically give them a personal statement here. You're doing good. Here's what you're doing bad. Here's how you should change it. And here's what you should know about me. You know, he's just going to give each of them a little, like, here's something from me. And, you know, anytime we read Bible, Don't always think of yourself as Moses or Daniel or Jesus in the stories. You know, maybe any given day, you're more like Judas or Peter or Pontius Pilate, or a member of the Sanhedrin, you know, like you're not always the good guy in the story, just so you'll know. And so some of these churches come up, well, two of them come across real good. Like you're doing great. You know, some of them come across like, ugh, they really get, spanked a little bit and then most of them gets kind of like a little good, a little bad, you know, so like, I think it's good to be, to just read them and be open to what, you know, what's the Bible saying about what's supposed to be our attitude towards Christ and what our churches are supposed to be like and not be like, and what's he, what he's saying. So the Jesus who was, is, is coming superpower. God coming in justice is going to set it right. I'm going to judge he's watching and you should be on his team. Be faithful to him. Don't worry about this dumb emperor, you know, and his little baby sitting on a globe, juggling stars. Like they're not, they're not the bosses. Jesus is
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:Awesome. Yeah, that's good. I think, these first two episodes have been super helpful to, like, Create some context because you can get in the weeds with revelation pretty easily. And so I think as we're going through this, this has been good just to kind of set the framework and like set our focus on what we can take away. So next episode, we're going to be jumping into the second church, Smyrna. And we're gonna take it from there, explore the historical context, explore kind of, you've visited each of
Jamison:I've been to all of them. We haven't been there and filmed properly yet. Maybe hopefully we can get that done in the near future.
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:so you've done an exploratory trip,
Jamison:yeah, I've, I've been to all of them. I've been to all of them once but three, basically, you know, don't tell anybody, but two of them are not as nice as the others. So start us in Phil, not, I'm sorry, by tire in Philadelphia, you know, Not as much to see there, whereas some of them are spectacular. So like Ephesus, Laodicea, Pergamon in particular are just spectacular.
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:hmm.
Jamison:Smyrna is photogenic. It's smaller, But it's real pretty. So, you know, there's some of them you're like, eh, I'm good. I don't, you know, so I've been to Ephesus more times than I can count now. I've been to Pergamon three or four times, but yes, by tire in Philadelphia and Sardis, those were, those were one offs, but I mean, I will go back, you know, we'll go
Revelation Episode 01_Josh:but we're definitely gonna go and do a trip where we, take the audience there and get to explore it. So if you do end up enjoying this series, just know that there will be a premium series available, full Bible study, full, you know, travel show meets a Bible study series as we call it, over on thelandofthebible. com in the future. But as always, if you guys have enjoying this and you want to hear more content like it, go over to landofthebible. com, subscribe on YouTube, or just listen wherever podcasts are playing and we will see you next time.